flowreen91 wrote:
Chainik wrote:

flowreen91
> When trying to transcode ... to see the difference between scene changes

Hint: press '.' key in mpv to step frame by frame. Or "Ctrl+right" in MPC-HC.

By spamming '.' in following example we can see that the cape scene frames are correctly repeated only for the Image comparison algorithm:

SVP motion vectors:
https://gyazo.com/e72e6ff3a090edd396057d0b26eee3f7
NVOF motion vectors:
https://gyazo.com/1b5a7afb1ceabf2ecd0f4a9c6b250de8
Image comparison:
https://gyazo.com/050c30df626410bde53291b9d8c47f76

Is there anything we can do to increase NVOF and SVP algorithms strength in order for them to correctly detect it and not interpolate that cape scene change?

Thank you! Watching on a large screen I could see the difference but I didn't know why until @Chainik suggested frame-step and this is exactly what I saw so I'm glad you were able to reproduce it here. IC is properly processing that scene. The only "garbage" Rife frames are with SVOP and NVOF which explains why I didn't like what I saw.

To summarise my previous comments: I did not see the Rife "garbage" frame shown in Rife.jpg for IC but I am seeing it for SVP and NVOF.

Chainik wrote:

dawkinscm
> He says he sees Rife.jpg with IC

This isn't what I'm saying.
I'm saying you'll see either
1. repeated frame 1 - when SC detected + "Repeat frame", regardless of the method used (IC or MVs)
2. blended frame 1 and frame 2 - when SC detected + "Blend adjacent frames",  regardless of the method used (IC or MVs)
3. some garbage mixed by RIFE - when SC missed, regardless of the method used (IC or MVs)

Thanks. This makes things clearer so here is what I am seeing:

For Image Comparison I see point 1 and point 2 for "repeated frames" and "blend adjacent frame" respectively.
For SVP and NVOF and disabled I see point 3.

Drakko01 wrote:
dawkinscm wrote:
Chainik wrote:

it's clearly a scene change and SVP do everything right - see f1.jpg before SC and f2.jpg after SC

> what you call "garbage" might simply the AI doing it's job1

see attached rife.jpg
for the 3rd time - if you OK with this - then OK, "SC = disabled" is right for you
and I'll continue thinking that proper SC detection is a must for every frame interpolation algorithm

So I just checked I do get the same before and after frames as shown in f1.jpg and f2.jpg, but for IC.  When I use either SVP or NVOF SC, I get the same issue as shown in Rife.JPG. It would be interesting to see what others are seeing here because I checked and rechecked using SVP SC to be sure,  so something strange is happening here. This might explain why I didn't like the look of what I see when using SVP SC.

For me the frame between F1 and F2 are much better that the rife.jpg and all methods look almost the same.

They do all look almost identical. But the issue is that I am seeing the opposite to @Chainik. I see f1 and f2 with IC and Rife.jpg with SVP and NFOF. He says he sees Rife.jpg with IC.

Chainik wrote:

it's clearly a scene change and SVP do everything right - see f1.jpg before SC and f2.jpg after SC

> what you call "garbage" might simply the AI doing it's job1

see attached rife.jpg
for the 3rd time - if you OK with this - then OK, "SC = disabled" is right for you
and I'll continue thinking that proper SC detection is a must for every frame interpolation algorithm

So I just checked I do get the same before and after frames as shown in f1.jpg and f2.jpg, but for IC.  When I use either SVP or NVOF SC, I get the same issue as shown in Rife.JPG. It would be interesting to see what others are seeing here because I checked and rechecked using SVP SC to be sure,  so something strange is happening here. This might explain why I didn't like the look of what I see when using SVP SC.

Chainik wrote:

> But an example of why IC is slightly better is in Dr Strange 2 where he throws his cloak to catch the girl. At the point she is caught the scene changes to show her being carried back.

what is the timecode?

He throws the cloak at 9:32 which catches her at 9:33 then the scene change happens. It's a sharp cut but I never noticed it before until I used SVP and NVOF.

Chainik wrote:

there's no way to "over-react"
if it see the SC it repeats the frame before SC or blends two frames
if it miss the SC then you'll see something mixed by RIFE -> which is your case with IC
that's it

But it's not missing it is it?. Wouldn't there be a clear difference between IC and disabled if it was?. But there is a difference between all 3 SC algorithms and disabled. It's just that whatever IC is doing while still there, is less jarring.  But even if you are correct then all that means is that what you call "garbage" might simply the AI doing it's job. Isn't that a good thing too?

Chainik wrote:

> At the point she is caught the scene changes to show her being carried back. With both NVOF and SVP this is a very sharp and jarring cut. With IC there's still an issue but it's less jarring and looks more natural.

So MVs see the scene change while IC doesn't, and still it's "better". OK then big_smile

All 3 "see the scene change" but two of them makes the scene change look like a jump cut. There's a difference between reacting to the scene change and over-reacting to it. We are grateful for SVP and so we are only trying to help you make SVP even better. But in this particular instance you seem determined to not even try to understand what we are saying.

Chainik wrote:
Drakko01 wrote:
Blackfyre wrote:

Can you provide the timestamp? I have that in high quality and I can test tomorrow.

3.06 and 3.16 the ribbons of the creature , maybe I misinterpreted and its something else.Thanks for taking the time.

---

smooth.scene.limits.scene = 8000;

will do the trick for those scenes
---
updated defaults in svpflow libs, ver. 273-1

With this latest update, all 3 SC algorithms are produce very similar results. But an example of why IC is slightly better is in Dr Strange 2 where he throws his cloak to catch the girl. At the point she is caught the scene changes to show her being carried back. With both NVOF and SVP this is a very sharp and jarring cut. With IC there's still an issue but it's less jarring and looks more natural.

dawkinscm wrote:

Update:  My VR headset also has increased CPU and decreased GPU usage effectively spreading resource usage across both CPU and GPU. I checked my Nvidia settings and there are still no changes. So this might be some kind of Microsoft/Nvidia optimisation.

So I think this is actually an SVP fix for image scaling rather than a Nvidia/Microsoft fix. I mentioned previously that I had issues with Dr Strange 2 but that's because it was 3D SBS and for whatever reason SVP did not handle it correctly. But since the latest updates, it is handled in the same way as files of the same resolution in other 3D and non 3D formats.  Correct scaling is responsible for the improvement I see with my GPU, not Nvidia/Microsoft.

RickyAstle98 wrote:
Xenocyde wrote:

Guys, do I need to disable hwdec=auto-copy in config? MPV got updated and it reset my config file.

Actually no, auto-copy better for RIFE procedures, for me for example (RTX 4070 user)

I remember @chainik saying that this is no longer the case and after testing it looks like we don't need to specifically use *-copy anymore.

flowreen91 wrote:
dawkinscm wrote:

Doesn't setting it to 100% effectively turn it off.

Scene change 100% allows rife to interpolate everything all the time.
Scene change at 99% and below enables the selected scene change detector to compare the frames
if a scene change is detected then it will prevent the interpolation by repeating the same frame and creating a "microstutter" in order to prevent visual issues that happen when camera teleports around.

Ahh yes that's it, it turns off SC not Rife. It was late and I was tired lol. 15% works really well and I remember saying the before the update, 15% and above behaved the same for me. But SVP has been updated and I see that 25% behaves a little differently to 15%, so I will give 99% and 100% a try.

Doesn't setting SC to high figures like 99% majorly reduce how much interpolation is being done? Doesn't setting it to 100% effectively turn it off. Isn't that what we were doing previously?

Edit: 100% turns off SC not Rife.

Blackfyre wrote:

SVP Motion Vectors in those specific time stamps makes the creature ribbons and America Chavez look as though they are dropping frames (even though there are no dropped frames at all), similar to Image Comparison when its set to very low percentages like 6% for example. But with custom 99% it is the smoothest always.

That's like what I was seeing in Alita at certain scene changes where she was skating.

Update:  My VR headset also has increased CPU and decreased GPU usage effectively spreading resource usage across both CPU and GPU. I checked my Nvidia settings and there are still no changes. So this might be some kind of Microsoft/Nvidia optimisation.

Drakko01 wrote:
dawkinscm wrote:

There's also scene in Dr Strange 2 where using SVP to reduce screen size actually helps to remove a movement artefact. The scene when he throws his cloak towards the monster to rescue the girl, there's always a little judder and some artefacts when she returns. But with Decrease Screen size, it's gone.


Same with the cloak and the bike for me that scene its horrible mismatching.

Apologies this one was my mistake. Yes those scenes have always caused me issues but not with v4.15 or v4.18. I was in the middle of testing GPU vs CPU using v4.9 for comparison and forgot to change back to v4.15/18. With v4.15/18 those scenes work fine. However the reduction in GPU usage and moderate increase in CPU is still there. BTW There's another movie scene I recently added for testing which had artefacts even on v4.15, but with this recent SVP update they are gone.

*deleted*

Something interesting is happening. Before in order to reduce GPU usage for my 1920x2160p movies I had to reduce screen size using SVP, even though my screen was set to 1080p. I no longer need to do this. There was another related issue with a 3D SBS file that didn't work properly which now works fine.  This means that I have now regained control over the downscale rather than relying on Vapoursynth downscalers. I thought maybe that Rife wasn't working because there is a bug in SVP where it sometimes runs but is not actually interpolating. But the test scenes are smooth and my GPU is running under 40%. But CPU load doubles when in use so maybe more of the load has been handed off to it.

Blackfyre wrote:

New Rife 4.18 here:
Interested for those who do tests to see if there are visual improvements with 4.18

Thank you. I was not expecting this. Anyway I did a quick run through my test scenes and was about to give when when I did find one scene which had a minor improvement with reduced movement artefacts to the point where you almost can't see it anymore. That's a good sign of hopefully more good things to come.

Thanks again smile

Chainik wrote:

> SVP motion has at least a couple of clear and repeatable stutters for certain scenes that IC does not.

meaning
1. it's a false positive SC, right? in which case you'd better share a sample with the problem... there're a lot of variables to adjust there.
2. you really prefer "RIFE-generated "garbage" frames" over frame repeating at a false-positive SC big_smile

No! I prefer a smooth 60fps motion where an action is clear without jitter or stutters. That's why I paid for SVP, but apparently I was mistaken. Good to know.

Chainik wrote:

> but Image Comparison just performs better overall for every problem scene I have.

probably you just prefer RIFE-generated "garbage" frames over repeated or blended ones

By the nature of your response, I'm guessing by your comment that SVP motion is your baby and because of that maybe you are missing the point. I want SVP motion to be better.  All I'm trying to do here is provide feedback to help you make it so.

Anyway, I tested using an MPV build from this week with the latest SVP update. Maybe it's the latest mpv build or the MPV changes you made,  but SVP motion has improved since the previous update. But since I'm almost certainly watching on the largest screen here, I can see stutters and micro-stutters thats most may not. SVP motion has at least a couple of clear and repeatable stutters for certain scenes that IC does not. Other than that, IC at 15% and SVP motion are practically identical. YMMV.

In all my tests of problem scenes, SVP algorithm at it's best can be better than Image Comparison, but at it's worst can give artefacts similar to NVOF. Image Comparison seems to be the best compromise giving the cleanest output with the least artefacts.

Chainik wrote:

Drakko01

>I still think that image comparison work the best

to be "the best" it must give less false positive scene changes, and less missed scene changes
which is not true

Prior to this latest update, the SVP algorithm might provide the best objective test results for false positives etc, just like a scaling algorithm might have the best objective PSNR and SSIM image quality scores. But in both cases, the resulting output when viewed by a human being can be less preferable to a lower scoring algorithm. It has it's faults, but Image Comparison just performs better overall for every problem scene I have.

*Edit. This conclusion is prior to the more recent SVP update so I have updated comment. Actual test updates will follow.

I think the previous comments are proof that this is setup dependant. SVP MV works best for @Chainik and works well overall but also has clear micro stutters. Some of the stutters are not so "micro". NVOF has always had clear stutters for me but works well for some. All except NVOF are siimlar, including Disable. But for me Image Comparison seems to work best with no obvious microstutters.

Chainik wrote:

> please write down here, for laymen to understand, what's the best opion to use
the default one! (which is "SVP motion vectors")

The default one works well with everything except the intro to Hugo where it stutters considerably.

Xenocyde wrote:

Installed the latest update and I noticed the Duplicate Frame Removal drop-down switched to Remove Every Other Frame. Shouldn't this stay on Don't Remove, even with Image Comparison + SCT 100% + Blend Adjacent Frames?

Mine didn't do that but did anyone else's do that?

The only bug I've seen is that sometimes when you change the Decreasing filter then SVP doesn't work the next time you start a video. But if I make sure to exit the Frame Size window back to the Main window then SVP always works with no issues.