1 Topic by vanden (edited by vanden 22-02-2014 11:06:09)

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Topic: Black Frame Insertion ??

Can you implemented this feature ?

because it seems very efficient ... on my CRT (96Hz or 120Hz) there is a huge difference between 48fps (frame doubling) vs 48fps+one black frame on 96Hz screen ... or 60fps vs 60fps+one black frame on 120Hz screen ...
24fps vs 24fps+3black frame on 96Hz screen eliminates the double-image effect but the flicker is too large ...

this test : http://www.testufo.com/#test=blackframe … qualizer=1

The only drawback is a loss of brightness ...

The others tests are also very interesting !

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

Yes we can. But we will not doing it because it is unusefull thing for 60 fps monitor and it makes flicker. It is harmfull to human eyes.

Why you need black frames on CRT?
CRT have zero latency, picture is already sharp in motion. No motion blur on CRT.

3 Reply by vanden (edited by vanden 22-02-2014 11:07:01)

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

For CRT and LightBoost, this animation is more dramatic, since it eliminates the double-image effect (30fps@60Hz with the clarity of 60fps@60Hz).
Also, this animation flickers more on 60Hz monitors (bad 30Hz flicker), while it looks much better on 120Hz monitors (better 60Hz flicker).

4 Reply by vanden (edited by vanden 22-02-2014 12:39:38)

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

concretely , I see

On "Compare Frame Rates UFO" :
http://vandenk.free.fr/96-48-24.png

On "Black Frame Insertion" :
http://vandenk.free.fr/48fps-BFI.png

There is no motion blur but there are double-image effect

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

vanden
For CRT and LightBoost, this animation is more dramatic, since it eliminates the double-image effect
Bullshit! I have LightBoost. No double-image effect at any video at any framerate. Maybe testufo is wrong test?! hmm

BTW. These two is not true images what really see human eyes.

6 Reply by vanden (edited by vanden 22-02-2014 13:51:29)

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

No it's good test , if you print screen "Compare Frame Rates UFO" you see only one image for all framerate ...
I see this effect clearly in the movie @ 24fps (slow traveling for example) without FI

I think 24 -> 48fps (SVP FI) + black frame insertion is as smooth as 24 -> 96fps (SVP FI) with less artifacts and less CPU usage.

7 Reply by vanden (edited by vanden 22-02-2014 13:56:48)

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

MAG79
BTW. These two is not true images what really see human eyes.

I made a montage in photoshop to represent what I really see ...

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

Have you ever seen real motion resolution tests?
I mean 'Hi-Definition Reference Disc 2008  Blu-ray 1080I AVC LPCM7.1' for example.
If you have this BD then you can look to 00019.m2ts and 00023.m2ts from it.

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

Ok I download Hi-Definition Reference Disc 2008  Blu-ray 1080I AVC LPCM7.1 ... and I test !

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vanden
I can tell you how to customize SVP to get every second black frame.
It is on your own risk. IT IS HARMFULL FOR EYES. It can be not safe for people with some diseases.

1. Open file C:\Program Files (x86)\SVP\AVS\MSmoothFps.avs in notepad.
2. Add line to the end of file:

interleave(last,last.BlankClip)

3. Close and save
4. In SVP profile window choose Target frame rate: To screen refreshrate / 2

You will get 48 fps at your 96 Hz monitor. You will see how ugly video looks.

11 Reply by vanden (edited by vanden 22-02-2014 14:54:20)

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

EDIT :
Thanks I'll test !


but I do not think there was a problem with the tests, the 3 tests "compare frame rate" I see the same effect ... I see this efect also on film (when the text moves horizontally or vertically) ...
For example it is clearly visible on the beginning of the French film "Home" (about 30 sec) ... if you want i can share this passage.

12 Reply by vanden (edited by vanden 24-02-2014 16:18:48)

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

I confirm that the "testufo" are fully functioning !

Here extracted videos.

"compare frame rates:UFO" :
96 vs 48 vs 24fps @ 960pixels/s :
http://vandenk.free.fr/SVP/96-48-24fps(960).m2ts
120 vs 60 vs 30fps @ 960pixels/s :
http://vandenk.free.fr/SVP/120-60-30fps(960).m2ts
96 vs 48 vs 24fps @ 1920pixels/s :
http://vandenk.free.fr/SVP/96-48-24fps(1920).m2ts
120 vs 60 vs 30fps @ 1920pixels/s :
http://vandenk.free.fr/SVP/120-60-30fps(1920).m2ts

"Black Frame Insertion" (96 hz / 120 hz monitor) :
48fps(FrameDoubling) vs 48fps(+1BlackFrameInsertion) @ 1920pixels/s :
http://vandenk.free.fr/SVP/48doubvs48BFI.m2ts
60fps(FrameDoubling) vs 60fps(+1BlackFrameInsertion) @ 1920pixels/s :
http://vandenk.free.fr/SVP/60Doublvs60BFI.m2ts

note:
on previous videos, the written frames rates must be multiplied by 2 !
I made the capture @ 48fps and 60fps and doubled the frame rate when remux

13 Reply by vanden (edited by vanden 24-02-2014 19:24:38)

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

Here is an excerpt from a real movie or I see clearly the double-image effect (original 24fps) :
http://vandenk.free.fr/SVP/Home.Test-001.mkv

The same 2x faster (original 48fps)
http://e-nautia.com/vanden/disk/Publiqu … 48fps).mkv

The interpolated (SVP FI 2x 48fps)
http://e-nautia.com/vanden/disk/Publiqu … VP-FI).mkv
SVP settings

On my screen I see double-image effect on this 3 files ("original 24fps"/"original 48fps"/"interpolated (SVP FI - 2x - 48fps)") ...

BFI :
96fps (original 48fps + 1 BlackFrameInsertion) :
http://e-nautia.com/vanden/disk/Publiqu … omex2).mkv

144fps (original 48fps (Doubled) + 1 BlackFrameInsertion) :
https://e-nautia.com/vanden/disk/Publiq … omex2).mkv

144fps (original 48fps + 2 BlackFrameInsertion) :
http://e-nautia.com/vanden/disk/Publiqu … omex2).mkv

96fps (SVP FI 2x 48fps + 1 BlackFrameInsertion) :
http://e-nautia.com/vanden/disk/Publiqu … VP-FI).mkv


- On my screen "96fps (original 48fps + 1 BlackFrameInsertion)" remove completly the double-image effect ... But the brightness is divided by two and there is a little flicker (CRT).

- Same with "96fps (SVP FI 2x 48fps + 1 BlackFrameInsertion)" but this less clear because some artifact are visible.

- "144fps (original 48fps (Doubled) + 1 BlackFrameInsertion) " only 1/3 of brightness are lost and double-image effect is reduced (but visible) and there are no flicker.

- "144fps (original 48fps + 2 BlackFrameInsertion) " remove completly the double-image effect ... But the brightness is divided by 2/3 and there is a little flicker (CRT).

Note :
It's possible to completly remove the double-image effect on "original 24fps" by inserting 3BF (No Frame Interpolation) : 96fps (original 24fps + 3 BlackFrameInsertion) but flicker is unbearable !!

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

vanden
Thank you. I downloaded all your videos. I will take a look.

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

Are there any means add the blackframes via GPU (shader) ?
Because avisynth script is too greedy ! (about 30% of my dual xeon system) ...

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

Funny that with a CRT u complain about motion blur, u should try a LCD for real motion blur big_smile, but CRT with age has slower response and bigger trail from used phosphor, can it be that problem?

Maybe it's time to get a new screen  smile  Only problem is they are almost all TN, but there's a recent one from eizo with a va panel that looks very interesting.

Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

vanden
Are there any means add the blackframes via GPU (shader) ?

Obviously we CAN do this but I'm still not really convinced it's useful for anyone except you.

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

BipBip

Funny that with a CRT u complain about motion blur, u should try a LCD for real motion blur big_smile, but CRT with age has slower response and bigger trail from used phosphor, can it be that problem?

In my opinion you do not read or watch the videos !

the CRT screens do not have motion blur, Idem for LightBoost/ULMB/BENQ Blur Reduction/Turbo 240 screens....

But all these screens are victim of double image effect: if you are watching a film (24 to 50 fps) you see this effect !
Look at the test : http://www.testufo.com/#test=blackframe … qualizer=1

Good if you do not see a diference, is that my eyes are too sensitive ...

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

Why cinema projectors inserts black frames ?

Shutter

A commonly held misconception is that film projection is simply a series of individual frames dragged very quickly past the projector's intense light source. This is not the case; if a roll of film were merely passed between the light source and the lens of the projector, all that would be visible on screen would be a continuous blurred series of images sliding from one edge to the other. It is the shutter that gives the illusion of one full frame being replaced exactly on top of another full frame. A rotating petal or gated cylindrical shutter interrupts the emitted light during the time the film is advanced to the next frame. The viewer does not see the transition, thus tricking the brain into believing a moving image is on screen. Modern shutters are designed with a flicker-rate of two times (48 Hz) or even sometimes three times (72 Hz) the frame rate of the film, so as to reduce the perception of screen flickering. (See Frame rate and Flicker fusion threshold.) Higher rate shutters are less light efficient, requiring more powerful light sources for the same light on screen.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Movie_projection_4_stages_en.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movie_projector

Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

vanden
Why cinema projectors inserts black frames ?

we're very lucky we don't have a roll of film  big_smile

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

Chainik

we're very lucky we don't have a roll of film  big_smile

No need a roll of film  big_smile ... just use home numeric projector ... for example SONY HW50ES/VW80/VW90/VW200/VW500/VW1000 has black frame insertion ...
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1472448/sony- … -insertion
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread … quot/page2
Optoma GT720/GT750/GT760 DLP Projectors has black frame insertion ...
http://www.blurbusters.com/gigantic-120 … projector/

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

vanden wrote:

BipBip

Funny that with a CRT u complain about motion blur, u should try a LCD for real motion blur big_smile, but CRT with age has slower response and bigger trail from used phosphor, can it be that problem?

In my opinion you do not read or watch the videos !

the CRT screens do not have motion blur, Idem for LightBoost/ULMB/BENQ Blur Reduction/Turbo 240 screens....

But all these screens are victim of double image effect: if you are watching a film (24 to 50 fps) you see this effect !
Look at the test : http://www.testufo.com/#test=blackframe … qualizer=1

Good if you do not see a diference, is that my eyes are too sensitive ...

Take it easy  smile

I was still using a CRT 2 years ago and using SVP already. But after 10 years of heavy use the screen was no longer bright and color were washed out so after long reading about different models I opted for a dell u2311h, which are not considered to be too bad in motion blur. First day of use I was O_O because of motion blur. I never really worked with a LCD so was a big shock the first days, even looking at the mouse pointer was hard. Almost returned it but kept it after all for other advantages and no real other all around better screen in market, so I think I can tell the difference  big_smile

But what u call double image effect are the sample and hold problem on LCD screens, and it gets all blurry when u add motion blur and some overshooting from RTC, and I don't remember ever seen that problem with my old CRT. And CRT do have motion blur, just check a white square, or round, going across the screen on different speeds and u'll tell me. And it gets worse when phosphor coat gets depleted. But since they are very fast compared to LCD, beam just hit the point for a few nanoseconds, and phosphor usually emits lights for a ms or so, we can say it's virtually motion blur free.

But it's strange that u have a problem similar to the s&h problem on LCD, might be some sync problem causing some stuttering otherwise I don't see what can be the cause. For more deep test u might try pixperan, and see if u have any problem. BTW to see if the problem is more motion blur or s&h problem u can wave ur hand in front of ur eyes and spread ur fingers a little bit for adjustments. Manual black frame insertion  lol . For example in readability test I can get way higher. But I don't think it will do any difference with a CRT  wink

23 Reply by vanden (edited by vanden 17-10-2014 08:48:51)

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Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

juste for fun ...

Test on 60Hz screen with low motion blur (for example CRT or BenQ Z series) :
- You can compare a native 60fps@60Hz  video (1-2ms motion blur / No double Image effect  / Low Flicker / and smooth) and a video 30fps@60Hz (1-2ms motion blur / dramatic Double Image effect  / Low Flicker / and not smooth). This is the equivalent of blurbusters "Frame Rate Compare" tests.
- You can also compare with 30fps+1BFI@60Hz video (1-2ms motion blur / No double Image effect / Very High Flicker / and smooth). 30fps@60Hz vs 30fps+1BFI@60Hz is the equivalent of blurbusters "Black Frame Insertion" test.

Test on 60Hz screen with motion blur (most of LCD) :
- You can compare a native 60fps@60Hz  video (16.7ms motion blur / No double Image effect / No Flicker / and smooth) and a video 30fps@60Hz (33.3ms motion blur / No double Image effect / No Flicker / and smooth).
- You can also compare with 30fps+1BFI@60Hz video (16.7ms motion blur / No Double Image effect / High Flicker / and smooth).


Test on 120Hz screen with low motion blur (for example CRT or All LCD with BenQ blur reduction / LightBoost / ULMB) :
-You can compare a Native 120fps@120Hz video (1-2ms motion blur / No double Image effect / No Flicker / and smooth) to a video 60fps@120Hz (1-2ms motion blur / Visible double Image effect / No Flicker / and not completely smooth) and a video 30fps@120Hz (1-2ms motion blur / Dramatic quadruple Image effect / No Flicker / and not smooth). This is the equivalent of blurbusters "Frame Rate Compare" tests.
- You can also compare to the 60fps+1BFI@120Hz video (1-2ms motion blur / No double Image effect / Low Flicker / and smooth). 60fps@120Hz vs 60fps+1BFI@120Hz is the equivalent of blurbusters "Black Frame Insertion" test with two UFOs. 30fps@120Hz vs 30fps+3BFI@120Hz is the equivalent of blurbusters "Black Frame Insertion" test  with four UFOs.

Test on 120Hz screen with motion blur (LCD 120-144Hz With No Motion Blur Reduction) :
- You can compare a Native 120fps@120Hz video (8.3ms motion blur / No Double Image effect / No Flicker / and smooth) to a video 60fps@120Hz (16.7ms motion blur / No Double Image effect / No Flicker / and smooth) and a video 30fps@120Hz (33.3ms motion blur / No Double Image effect / No Flicker / and smooth).
- You can also compare the 60fps+1BFI@120Hz video (8.3ms motion blur / No Double Image effect / No Flicker / and smooth). And also compare the 30fps+3BFI@120Hz video (8.3ms motion blur / No Double Image effect / High Flicker / and smooth).


The 60fps video was obtained by accelerating (x2.5) of the original 24fps video.
The 30fps video was obtained by selecting one frame on 2 of the 60fps video.
The 120fps video was obtained by interpolating (SVP-x2) of the 60fps video.

Re: Black Frame Insertion ??

Chainik wrote:

vanden
Are there any means add the blackframes via GPU (shader) ?

Obviously we CAN do this but I'm still not really convinced it's useful for anyone except you.

Old discussion but with OLED having problems with motion blur/judder BFI might be a nice addition to SVP, just as an option pleople can switch on or off.