51 Reply by Blackfyre (edited by Blackfyre 02-03-2015 06:12:56)

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

mashingan wrote:
Blackfyre wrote:

Dropped frames with MPC+Madvr destroys smoothness. Can you guys test MPDN with the frame dropping and tell me if you see it not being smooth, before claiming that it isn't.

Like I said, it's illusion of smoothness. See the word noticeable in my previous post.

mashingan wrote:

Dropping frames does affect the smoothness, but to be noticeable or not is matter of placebo

Now, have you ever tried SVP setting with "double frame-rate (2x)" instead of "to screen refresh rate" ?
It's better to see by yourself how the illusion works even in MPC.
P.S.1 : Assuming your display refresh rate is 60hz and video is 24fps.
P.S.2 : Try it with some anime episodes to see how the illusion breaks down

If you get the differences between that two setting, you definitely know why MPDN still (looks) smooths and reduces the artifacts albeit drops frames.
The hint is 4:2 and 5:2.

I have done that...  I've done extensive testing with all sort of settings and combinations and the article I wrote has the best setting that worked for me. 48FPS (2x source) is better than 24fps, 60 (to original monitor refresh rate is slightly better), 3x is even better, 4x is good, 5x is better than that, 6x is the best I've tried, after 6x I get dropped and delayed frames in MPC and every other player (which means my CPU can't handle it) also in the performance graph, beyond 6x I drop below 0.98x and it lags.

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Blackfyre
48FPS (2x source) is better than 24fps, 60 (to original monitor refresh rate is slightly better), 3x is even better, 4x is good, 5x is better than that, 6x is the best I've tried, after 6x
It is interesting method. To interpolate first to one rate and then to blend frames to another rate. From your words:

24 -interpolate-> 48 -blend-> 60 (better)
24 -interpolate-> 60 (slightly better)
24 -interpolate-> 72 -blend-> 60 (even better)
24 -interpolate-> 96 -blend-> 60 (good)
24 -interpolate-> 120 -blend-> 60 (better)
24 -interpolate-> 144 -blend-> 60 (dropped and delayed frames)

Is it what you mean? right?

53 Reply by mashingan (edited by mashingan 02-03-2015 06:35:22)

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

BlackFyre

Yes, then try for some anime episodes with 2x, you'll see it's not smooth enough.
Of course, you can try "to screen refresh rate" too, you'll see it smooth but with artifacts (Try the opening of Hitsugi no Chaika Avenging Battle, you'll see it)

As anime doesn't have dynamic motion as same as live video movies.

The reason why MPDN drops frames but still looked smooth, it actually doesn't render with 5:2 multiplication, but it's closer to 2x multiplication by dropping frames (this is just my guess though)
Exact multiplication coefficient has always preferred for retaining smoothness and reducing artifacts.

Here's the simple formula: smoothness ~= artifacts
If you get higher smoothness, the higher artifacts you get, and viceversa, if you lower the smoothness the lower artifacts.
Of course it's just in a simplified form, in implementation, you still factor many things like video fps itself, screen refresh rate, video dynamic motion, video quality (blurred video will harder to detect the edge), etc

54 Reply by Blackfyre (edited by Blackfyre 02-03-2015 06:40:36)

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

MAG79 wrote:

Blackfyre
48FPS (2x source) is better than 24fps, 60 (to original monitor refresh rate is slightly better), 3x is even better, 4x is good, 5x is better than that, 6x is the best I've tried, after 6x
It is interesting method. To interpoleate first to one rate and then to blend frames to another rate. From your words:

24 -interolate-> 48 -blend-> 60 (better)
24 -interolate-> 72 -blend-> 60 (even better)
24 -interolate-> 96 -blend-> 60 (good)
24 -interolate-> 120 -blend-> 60 (better)
24 -interolate-> 144 -blend-> 60 (dropped and delayed frames)

Is it what you mean? right?

I mean the higher the framerate I can play, the smoother and less artifacts I see. Does that not make any sense? As a developer? Increasing the framerate doesn't correlate to how smooth a video plays?

mashingan wrote:

BlackFyre

Yes, then try for some anime episodes with 2x, you'll see it's not smooth enough.
Of course, you can try "to screen refresh rate" too, you'll see it smooth but with artifacts (Try the opening of Hitsugi no Chaika Avenging Battle, you'll see it)

As anime doesn't have dynamic motion as same as live video movies.

The reason why MPDN drops frames but still looked smooth, it actually doesn't render with 5:2 multiplication, but it's closer to 2x multiplication by dropping frames (this is just my guess though)
Exact multiplication coefficient has always preferred for retaining smoothness and reducing artifacts.

Here's the simple formula: smoothness ~= artifacts
If you get higher smoothness, the higher artifacts you get, and viceversa, if you lower the smoothness the lower artifacts.
Of course it's just in a simplified form, in implementation, you still factor many things like video fps itself, screen refresh rate, video dynamic motion, video quality (blurred video will harder to detect the edge), etc

I haven't watched anime for two years, I'm two years behind on naruto. But I do watch family guy and American dad and I watched the latest dragon ball z movie which came out (battle of the gods) in 720p (this was my best "anime" test, the higher the framerate the smoother it ran for me, 48fps on my 60Hz monitor isn't smooth, it's smoother than the original source at 24fps, but 96fps is when motion blur finally is almost eliminated and I'm left with a clear,  sharp, fast moving image.

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Blackfyre
I must to try MPDN first to answer your question. As I can see from description it uses frame-blend technique. Like madVR's smooth motion. But I need to closer look to tell more.

56 Reply by Blackfyre (edited by Blackfyre 02-03-2015 07:22:01)

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

MAG79 wrote:

Blackfyre
I must to try MPDN first to answer your question. As I can see from description it uses frame-blend technique. Like madVR's smooth motion. But I need to closer look to tell more.

Exactly. I hope you see what I've been trying to explain the whole time.

MPDN --- if FPS goes over the monitor refresh rate it automatically disables smooth motion (fluid motion).
Madvr --- if FPS goes over the monitor refresh rate, smooth-motion remains enabled (0 Frames Dropped, 0 Frames Delayed).

Madvr --- if FPS goes over monitor refresh rate, and I go disable smooth-motion, it begins to drop frames just like MPDN. basically if I'm running 100 frames per second on a 60Hz monitor that can only do 60 frames per second, it drops the remaining 40. As a result 40 frames per second are dropped out.

But what I'm saying is, that even though my refresh rate is 60, forcing SVP to do higher frame-rates, results in less artifacts and smoother motion.

I don't know honestly, the best explanation I can come up with as to why this happens is... for example running 60fps at 60hz, the media player chooses all 60 frames and shows them (no dropped frames), but if I'm running 120fps at 60hz, the media player now has 120 frames to choose to display and drop out the other 60 frames. MPDN with DX11 Presentation API, maybe, chooses the best 60 frames out of the 120 that are generated. Rather than maybe MPC, choosing the first 60 frames out the 120.

Could this explain why SVP feels smoother, and runs with less artifacts on MPDN? I don't know; but it's the best explanation I can come up with... different media players choose different frames to display when FPS is higher than monitor refresh rate and drop out the rest of the frames.

The dropped frames issue I'm having isn't a bottleneck, it's simply extra frames that get dropped. Enabling smooth-motion means I have 0 dropped frames, and 0 delayed frames in MPC, but that doesn't make the video any smoother than what it was... Just because frames are dropping doesn't mean it's a hardware issue or it's lagging, they're dropping because I'm running at frame-rates exceeding my monitor refresh rate with smooth-motion disabled.

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Blackfyre
I see.
Can you record your variants at 1080p60 with hardware encoding and compare them frame by frame?
The answers are there.
I can but I need time to do that. It will happened not today or tomorrow smile

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

MAG79 wrote:

Blackfyre
I see.
Can you record your variants at 1080p60 with hardware encoding and compare them frame by frame?
The answers are there.
I can but I need time to do that. It will happened not today or tomorrow smile

Which program do you recommend I should use to encode @ 1080p60fps?

PS: Take your time, no rush.

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

I use Open Broadcaster Software
Also you can try A's Video Converter
Both software are free.

60 Reply by Mystery (edited by Mystery 02-03-2015 18:44:33)

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

I can see how blending 2 frames could maybe reduce artifacts. It's kind of like when watching low-quality VCDs with SVP and madVR's Jinc resizing. The way pixels and frames are being calculated makes a lot of the original noise to away. Not sure what would be the impact on the image quality though. Wouldn't blending two frames in that way create subtle ghost effects? Perhaps the ghost effects would be so small that we wouldn't see it.

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Hi again. Installed Windows 10 build 10041 and tried this software again. You're right. Together with SVP, very impressive. Smaller halos around moving objects, less blurring. And just super impressive upscaling using the GUI editor.

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

biff wrote:

Hi again. Installed Windows 10 build 10041 and tried this software again. You're right. Together with SVP, very impressive. Smaller halos around moving objects, less blurring. And just super impressive upscaling using the GUI editor.

I'm glad it's working for you. How's Windows 10 by the way? Any performance increase when it comes to Madvr and MPDN? Any noticeable problems?

I have it on my laptop but can't really test performance, it's a low-end laptop just used for studies and browsing.

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

The latest Win 10 build works perfectly so far for me. SVP, and everything else, work noticeably faster on Win 10 vs. Win 8.1. The latter I found faster than Win 8, which I found faster than Win 7. Basically, I can watch film with SVP free of distracting artifacts. The last hurdle is clearing up the vague halos and eliminating occasional blurring. As to Madvr and MPDN in particular, I can't say. This is the first time I've got MPDN to work so I have nothing previous to compare to. I'm running a GTX 970 so Madvr already did a great job. However, at the moment, MPDN's GUI upscaling is, on my rig, vastly outperforming PotPlayer/MPC with Madvr.

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Something else I haven't seen mentioned much is adjusting bus clock settings. This gave SVP a dramatic jump in performance for me. On my MSI board I went to "PCI Subsystem Settings" then selected "PCI latency timer" and maxed out the bus setting to "248 PCI bus clocks".  This also improved earlier latency issues I had with an audio card I had installed then. Apparently (I'm no computer expert) upping the bus clock allows the video card more time to work with the CPU. Either way, SVP performed much better afterwards.

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Has anyone tried watching anime using MPDN?

I observed no differences between MPDN and MPC/PotPlayer regarding the artifacts (when watching anime),
so I want to make sure whether it's just the same or I just couldn't notice the differences.

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Sorry, I don't watch anime. But watching film, I'm seeing a whole new level of detail with MPDN. Maybe I'm just seeing 1080p properly presented for the first time. It's not perfect. There's too much extra noise in the frames along with the extra detail. But still, pretty amazing.

67 Reply by Blackfyre (edited by Blackfyre 21-03-2015 09:39:03)

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

biff wrote:

Something else I haven't seen mentioned much is adjusting bus clock settings. This gave SVP a dramatic jump in performance for me. On my MSI board I went to "PCI Subsystem Settings" then selected "PCI latency timer" and maxed out the bus setting to "248 PCI bus clocks".  This also improved earlier latency issues I had with an audio card I had installed then. Apparently (I'm no computer expert) upping the bus clock allows the video card more time to work with the CPU. Either way, SVP performed much better afterwards.

I'm going to assume you're not talking about BCLK (because that doesn't make sense, it can't be that high). I can't find any relative settings regarding what you're talking about on my Gigabyte board. Googled quickly, couldn't find anything. Can you link me anything regarding gigabyte boards?

I have a Z97X-Gaming-GT

It's a high-end board, should have all the advanced settings. I went around looking for it, but didn't find any latency related PCI timer settings.

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

I have an MSI Z77MA-G45. I found this explanation online: "PCI Latency Timer Controls how long each PCI device can hold the bus before another takes over. When set to higher values, every PCI device can conduct transactions for a longer time and thus improve the effective PCI bandwidth." 

Just monkeying around I maxed out the settings, providing more face time between my CPU and video card, and SVP immediately showed improvement. It also cured my sound card woes. As to your board, perhaps try googling PCI latency timer. Best of luck...

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

I still have not looked into this whole MPDN thing yet, but I would like to have a question answered before I eventually do dive in.

Can MPDN to single-frame advancing while paused like MPC-HC can?  In MPC-HC you can hold Ctrl and then use left/right arrow to navigate foward/back by a single frame.

70 Reply by Mystery (edited by Mystery 21-03-2015 17:31:57)

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:

Can MPDN to single-frame advancing while paused like MPC-HC can?  In MPC-HC you can hold Ctrl and then use left/right arrow to navigate foward/back by a single frame.

Yes it does.

I tried again with the latest 2.22 version and it fixes the black screen problem I was having with v2.21

For Video Renderer Script, what do you recommend? Should I leave it at None or activate one of them? Should I leave default upscalers/downscalers or customize them?

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Mystery wrote:

Yes it does.

Okaaaayyyy... may I ask how?

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Although I'm not getting a black screen anymore, it still weirdly reduces the size of the video but I can still see how it plays with 144h output and 4x SVP.

Here's one video with serious artifacts @ 2:16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF3MC8PWgJE

It does still have serious artifacts.

Here's another one @ 3:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNOIo4rolC4

At first sight, it does appear to be more watchable.

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:
Mystery wrote:

Yes it does.

Okaaaayyyy... may I ask how?

CTRL+RIGHT moves forward frame by frame.

CTRL+LEFT does something weird... not frame by frame but it moves smile

74 Reply by Nintendo Maniac 64 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 21-03-2015 17:47:52)

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Mystery wrote:

CTRL+RIGHT moves forward frame by frame.

Alright, that'll be easy to remember since it's the same as MPC-HC.

Mystery wrote:

CTRL+LEFT does something weird... not frame by frame but it moves smile

I guess I'll investigate that as well once I get around to this whole thing...

75 Reply by biff (edited by biff 22-03-2015 03:01:10)

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Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

To unleash the potential of MPDN (I'm seeing way more detail in film than I've ever seen before), you have to use a render script. MPDN's author posts two easy options here: 
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1 … tcount=322

The options are:
(1) Pre-/Post processing with NEDI
(2) Pre-/Post processing with SuperResChroma + SuperRes with NEDI

The first should be doable by a mid-range video card, whereas the second nearly maxes out my GTX970. Both, for me, were great improvements over the upscaling I achieved using Madvr with other players.

Other than that, I find the dithering function too noisy so I shut it off.